Talk:Mahjong yaku

Tile Order
Having been playing with live tiles, the tile order in your hand doesn't matter, as long as you have the proper hand composition. Of course, online sites have the tiles in order for the sake of organization. Whether tiles are in order by suit or not, I'll leave that decision to whoever. KyuuAL 19:04, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Riichi
Japanese standard rules apply 2-yaku for double riichi throughout the hand, not just the first go-around. If there is variation to this, we can indicate it as well. And yep, as verified, I read it in my copy of the EMA rules. That makes Double Riichi Ippatsu as just 2-yaku instead of 3. KyuuAL 05:32, May 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's a very dubious example of a double riichi scored as 2-yaku after a few go-arounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVOl94XKJk (The funny thing is... figure it out. Then LOL). KyuuAL 07:25, May 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I believe that the extra han for a daburu riichi can be won throughout the hand. However, you only get the extra han for it if the riichi is declared in the first go-around. If riichi is declared in the first go-around and is won in the next go-around, it should be worth 3 han, I believe.
 * Also, I would be surprised if knowledgeable Japanese players considered these are three separate yakus, as you can't get daburu or ippatsu without also getting riichi. So it should be considered as one yaku worth one to three han, IMO. The concept is similar to menzen. A yaku that allows both open or closed hands isn't considered two separate yakus. Perhaps daburu and ippatsu were separated from riichi by some for statistical analysis. ChrisH8 08:23, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I looked at page 26 of the Barticle guide and I don't see where it says riichi stems from reach, just that reach is the English equivalent. Oh, and it says that riichi came from Chinese, as expected. Unfortunately, Barticle seems to mix the romaji and English equivalents in some parts, including having reach as a section header, which may cause confusion. Dora, though, stems from English (page 36), but I believe it's still romaji, so I'll continue to italicize it. Note that I'm only italicizing mahjong romaji. The majority of the names of the Saki characters, like "Saki" are also romaji, but I only italicize "Saki" when referring to the fiction and not the character name. I don't italicize "Nodoka", for example. ChrisH8 22:07, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Favoring "Japanese name" to the yaku
http://www.osamuko.com/2009/08/04/introducing-new-terms-to-an-old-game/

Basically stem off of this article.

Using my own learning curve to this game, did I try to learn the yaku based on the "English equivalent". However, in the end, when you try to speak to another player, they'd end up looking at you funny. Plus, the English equivalents to the yaku are not standardized anywhere. So, when you count out the yaku after a win, it's more definite and more concise to identify the yaku in Japanese. At the same time, it's a balancing act between explaining parts of the game in English between using Japanese "jargon".

But, if there's one thing English is good at, it is importing words from other languages into its own, like "sushi", "kamikaze", and a whole mess of other Japanese words. In time, these actually became English words too. If there's one thing I have to remember, I don't want to intimidate new players.

So, alright. I may have to bring the table format from regular Wikipedia into here. Might as well end up throwing in the kanji as well. FYI, my skill in Japanese is lower than that of kindergarten. Sadface. KyuuAL 20:14, May 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I read Osamuko's opinion. I mostly agree, which is why I put the romaji names first whereas the EMA and Wikipedia have the English equivalent names first. Even the Barticle guide you mentioned (which I will read in its entirety) has both listed at the same level, with the romaji first. So I definitely think that we should list both at the same level. Like I said, using only the romaji would make it easier to cross link, but it hurts the learning curve, and this site should be helpful to new learners more than other sites. The reason the Saki mangas and DVDs aren't sold in the USA is likely due to the USA's unfamiliarility with Japanese/riichi mahjong. There are also watchers of the English subbed Saki animes who aren't familiar with Japanese/riichi mahjong, but who have played other variations. English equivalents would help them too, I think.


 * Writing up a Manual of Style is definitely moving up on the list of things I want to do eventually. ChrisH8 21:46, May 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * ChrisH8: No, teaching people English terms hurts the learning curve.Also, I'm changing all the English terms to EMA's. USPML also uses these. DosaKen 16:04, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have good reason to believe that including English terms in an English site would help the learning curve. Nowadays, we don't use the Indian sub-continent's names for chess pieces to teach chess.
 * The problem with the various English terms used over many different sites is that they use a mix of languages and/or incorrect descriptive terms. Some sites even use colloquial terms. This isn't a copy and propagate old or bad English terms site. If you wish to change a yaku's English name, than have a reason why it should be named something different based on the properties of the yaku itself. One alternative popular term can be included in the yaku's description if someone believes that it is warranted. ChrisH8 17:11, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mahjong is young game; Japanese mahjong is even younger. Like you said, there are many different sets of terminolgy, so wouldn't it be best to use the one the two biggest organzations (USPML and EMA) use even if YOU think they're "old or bad"?
 * PS: A non-mahjong-playing Japanese person will find Japanese yaku names weird
 * PPS: Comparing Chess terminology to mahjong like that is silly, I'm sure they had no internet or information wasn't as easily accessible as it is today and commoners like us were even dumber back then. I also don't know much about the history of chess. DosaKen 17:46, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mahjong is an old game.
 * If we use old or bad terms, it hurts the learning curve.
 * Yes, I would imagine that Japanese people would consider Japanese yaku names weird as I believe that they are heavily borrowed from Chinese. It it thus not suprising that the romaji spellings of the yakus will vary too, although not as much as the English terms currently vary.
 * Having relevant historical knowledge of the games is a good thing. ChrisH8 18:45, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mahjong is about 200-300 years old I believe, Japanese mahjong is maybe 80. Not all that old when compared to chess and Go (btw, in the English go community people use Japanese terms despite it being a Chinese game)
 * I believe that to make the mahjong more accessible there needs to be a standardized terminology, but unfortunately every new site that pops up decide to make their own up. Since none of these sites will get together and say "Hey, let's use the same terms" Japanese mahjong will never be as popular as other games. DosaKen 19:12, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Strategy
Just a note. Based on strategy, some of the yaku are worth examining in a separate article. However, not all of them, as some are fairly straight-forward. KyuuAL 21:06, May 22, 2012 (UTC)